Tuesday, August 30, 2011
Homer's attitude about war
Homer describes in great descriptive detail the deaths of warriors on the battlefield; he shows the destructive effect of war on Hector's family; he communicates the glory of fighting and the shame of failing to fight. From this range of human reactions/emotions, comment on Homer's overall attitude about war as a human endeavor.
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I think it's easy to see that this story is third person omniscient. In saying that, Homer presents the story in an all-knowing way, reading the characters minds. In my perspective, Homer's tone is not prevalent. What he describes are just the events themselves in an objective view. While events can make the case of either side, I think it's important to see not what he is writing but how he is writing the story. Going along the line of epics and their (somewhat) historical relevance, I feel as though Hector is describing events in a well-described but impartial view.
ReplyDelete-Jake Messer, W-3
Homer's attitude towards war is typical of Greeks at that time. He knows that it isn't up to the humans, it is all up to the gods and is therefore inevitable. He depicts it as a way that Greek men earn fame and glory. Those that refuse to participate in the battles are shamed and condemned. Homer does show sympathy towards Troy's heroes, though. This, however, doesn't negate the fact that he glorifies war by minimizing the deaths in battle and elevating some fighters as heroes.
ReplyDeleteThe way Homer wrote seemed almost sympathetic to the fighters because of the way that they continually lay themselves down as a group rather than fighting to stay alive individually. The idea of the gods affecting their outcome was more of a group idea rather than something individuals thought of. When Achilles talked about being doomed by the gods it was as he went by the other troops into battle. Rarely, if ever, did he talk about his fate according to the gods while he was sullen in his tent. Yet Achilles was still the greatest hero. The way Homer wrote the book he was saying that war was the best way for men to come together as a single force but the individual was an even greater threat.
ReplyDeleteHomer's attitude about war is that it is inevitable. He does not condemn the practice, but presents the irony war in a way that suggests he does not approve of it. The greatest heroes in the Iliad, such as Hector and Achilles, were those who had grand reputations as being brave warriors. However, the way Homer kills off the warriors suggests that he does not approve of it. After a fighter is killed, the killer often taunts his victim, saying that his family will never rejoice in his presence again. The killer sometimes talks about the man's father and wife, saying that their lives will be ruined and they will grieve for him. During the early books of the Iliad, a truce is decided upon, but that truce ultimately gives way due to the gods' interference. Although Homer does not condemn or exalt war, he does suggests that the practice is inevitable.
ReplyDeletethis comment was so great i could not say it better oncore oncore
DeleteHomer sees war as the means to a desired end. The soldiers must go to battle to earn the respect of their peers. He doesn't exalt the process of war; in fact, he often paints gruesome pictures of the deaths of warriors in battle. However, the most revered characters are those who have fought bravely, such as Odysseus and Hector. Throughout the Iliad,it is evident that Homer sees war as an evil, necessary for achieving glory in society.
ReplyDeleteHomer's attitude toward war is very sympathetic. He expresses that war is needed for any person to become a hero of any sort in society. A person that is unwilling to fight in a war is condemned as non-worthy of any awards or trophies at all. Yet, he almost feels sorry for the warriors, because he portrays that once you pledge yourself to the war, you are signing off your life. It all depends on how lucky you get as to how soon you will meet your demise.
ReplyDeleteKelly Maxwell W-3
Homer’s attitude towards war as an overall human endeavor is that of subtle appraise. Humans are impermanence; therefore they need to make the most of their lives with the little time they have. By dying from battling in war one lives their life with great dignity, so war itself may not be of great glory but rather the deeds and nobilities that come from war itself make warriors honorable at their death. From this one may attest that Homer thinks of war as something to be glorified, not from the brutality and bloodshed that others at this time thought of but rather from the aspect that since one could achieve the highest status possible only through gruesome tragedy, war is the one answer to obtaining this stature.
ReplyDeleteRachel Jack W-3
War is inevitable. Yes, and as it has such an impact on human behavior and emotions, it can not be ignored, no matter who attempts in so doing (Paris). Homer goes into depth, portraying these human characteristics, in a more pitied tone. An example being Hector's family becoming torn apart. This describes the anguish Homer would have for Hector, knowing his son would not glorify his name in his older age, because of his death. The gore of a violent war depicts the suffering of warriors who had no better choice, because to reach glory and a higher stature in society required the stories other’s presented of your name. Furthermore, the belief system that the gods ruled and controlled all, being human wasn’t a lifestyle choice, but merely fate. In order to survive being human, war, which would more than likely lead to death, was sympathetically unavoidable.
ReplyDeleteHomer seems to have a very strong awareness of the harshness of war. In the Iliad he goes to great depths to describe what death looks like to the reader. He also has a sort of negativity towards war. This also seems to rise to the surface by his explicit description of the deaths of the warriors and also the people indirectly involved in the war. He doesn't go into much depth about the families of the soldiers, but he does with Hector's family. He shows the wife's side, and her mourning and grief after the death of her husband. Homer definitely understands the brutality involved with war.
ReplyDelete-Jeremiah
Homer is very good at using similes to tie events of war to everyday events in human life. In doing so he creates an attitude that war is a normal part of human life. Homer also shows that there is honor in leading an average day-to-day life. This is unusual since he wrote during a time when honor was reserved for those who fought dangerously in battle with the possibility of dying. Though Homer showed an unusually positive view towards members of society who were not fighting, he did not give a negative attitude toward those who fought. When Patroclus, Hector, and many others died, Homer had an attitude of respect, not disrespect.
ReplyDelete-Brittany Golden
Homer has an anti-war attitude. He writes an epice not just about a war, but about the people who are affected by it. He uses the victims emotions to help describe the war. Even the survivors are a victim of some trajedy. Homer lets it be known that a war will occur no matter what the cause, but he wishes it wouldn't. The way he describes the characters rage and anguish says that wars do more harm than good. In the present I think many could learn from wise Homer. Don't fight over a girl! Of all the respectable reasons to start a war and Homer chooses Helen as the cause. That detail says much about his view about war.
ReplyDeleteHomer disapproves of war. But, being the master craftsman that he is, it's not easy to catch. In fact, the gruesome, but glorious deaths of soldiers and the central focus of Achilles' fame because of the war could point out the opposite. However, throughout the text Homer maintains almost perfect neutrality, he doesn't ever show care for one side or the other. Homer wasn't passionate about the fight. Another thing that exposes his disposition towards war is Achilles' fate. While he is making war, Achilles is reminded by Thetis, and Hera (through one of his horses) of his unavoidable death that comes because he went to war. The affect on families of the deceased is also talked demonstrated with Priam and his sons (most directly Hector, with his wife, child, and father all being functioning characters in the story) Patroclus' death, and with Achilles thinking about his own father.
ReplyDeleteHomer also paints a picture of the futility of war. Because the gods weigh so heavily into the results of any particular fight described in the Iliad, any act of a man alone is in vain. So in Homer's reality war is vain because no matter how hard an army fights, the will of the gods will ultimately be done.
Homer doesn't want an author's opinion of war portrayed in his writing. He suggests many ideas of how he feels on the subject to leave us as readers wondering which opinion is the real opinion. At first he seems opposed to the idea of fighting, the similies he uses makes us believe that the Trojan war was violent and unecessarly so. But he gives a certain sense of couragesness to the warriors and a proud feeling of the battles between two. Then again, deaths of fellow Achaean's and Trojans seem to be frowned upon and sudden, like they weren't meant to die and they did so pointlessly. Homer wanted to tell the story as the story was and not to pursuade the audience to one part or character.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Homer views war as an inevitable part of life, because of the gods continually unknown involvement in the the lives of humans. Homer also displays war as a man/warriors attempt to earn pride and honor. It is the only way that a man can be truly respected; that is, by being willing to kill or be killed in battle. It also seems that Homer doesn't agree with this agenda. A good example of his anti-war attitude is the portrayal of Hector as a wonderful, loving father and husband. Homer was a Greek willing to show his distaste for war, but still followed the societal ritual of passing on pertinent information about honorable heroes.
ReplyDeleteThrough various passages of the Illiad,one could easily draw to the conclusion that Homer was anti,or pro war.I believe this is not Homer’s primary focus.Homer depicts war as an ironic tension between the glory of man,and the emptiness of battle. He acknowledges that the divine are ultimately sovereign and thus the outcome of war is determined by fate. Though mortals have no control,he points out that war is the essential condition to which men are born.The purpose of life itself for these people is to be exalted through achievement in battle.Homer shows the irony in this by describing the brutality of battle with a killing and thus showing that what was once gloriously crucial to human beings is now, within seconds,empty and meaningless.
ReplyDeleteHomer isn't particularly fond of war, but his tone implies that he doesn't necessarily hate it either. Homer doesn't put his own opinion into the Illiad so much as he's just telling a story. Although he wrote an epic poem that involves gruesome deaths at every turn, the major theme of the poem was that of the gods and their power/intervention. Homer is telling a story that's been passed down for ages (most likely), so it's only history to him. Warriors during this time period lived to fight. They believed that if they died on the battlefield they'd receive honor and praise and that a glorious death was the most important thing to live for. On the flip side, they believed that to die of old age would be the most shameful disgrace and bring dishonor to their names. Homer was writing about the importance of death, not his opinion on death.
ReplyDeleteTo understand Homer's overall attitude about war, you must first keep in mind that this was a story that had been passed down for years with different people's personalities thrown into the mix. This is of course including Homer's. Homer wasn't a huge fan of war, but he understood the pressure society had on the young soldiers urging them to fight. Homer wasn't afraid to be detailed with his descriptions of a hero's death. In the art of war, the soldiers Homer described were receiving great honor. They will forever live on in the pages of the Iliad. For example, Hector is the ultimate hero. He only questions the pressure from society when he is alone, yet he still decides to charge into battle knowing that he won't make it out alive. He knew that it would be more honorable for him, and his family, if he died a hero in battle than to be a coward and flee. Overall, I don't think Homer agrees with the Greek’s decisions to 'Kill or be Killed', but he understands the need to live up to the pressures of society.
ReplyDelete-Audrey Mathis
Homer definitely didn't flat out express his opinion of war, but he isn't extremely fond of war, but he understands that it is a necessary and invetiable part of life. Personally I find it interesting that many of you have mentioned that the heroes are based on their performance in war. Yet, as Michaela said Achilles and Hector are two main heroes yet they both question or detest the idea the method of glory. Hector left the battle to return to war but lost no glory and gained no shamed because no one knew of his actions. As for Achilles it seems to show that if you can challenge this method and get away with it, but it isn't easy. Eventually Achilles joins in the war but more toward the end. Thus, even the greatest heroes faulter in their actions.
ReplyDeleteThe Gods definitely significantly impacted the war, and their unpredictable actions kept the warriors on their toes. I find it interesting how in order to keep the warriors in the battle for glory they often used the gods to keep them in line and fighting.
Homer explains to us that the version of war is in a glory and honor system. From his point of view, you either live and kill to get glory, or die and give someone else glory. If you die in battle, though, you are given the greatest glory of a hero.
ReplyDeleteHomer also indirectly explains to us how going to war is always definite via societal pressure. In other words, because society says you have to, you have to go to war and fight until you kill(a lot) or be killed.
Those who choose not to fight are given the greatest punishment that was known to that time period by society, which is shame. For example, Achilles defies this norm and says he won't fight(even though he does eventually go to fight) and becomes shamed.
Homer's primary intent was not to make a statement about whether he thought war was good or bad. His primary intent, I think, was to portray - in all its glory and shame - the Greek perception of reality in general and war in specific. I don't think we can point at one of the character's speeches over the honor that war can bring and claim those as Homer's views, nor can we point at the lack of a rational reason given in the book for the war in the first place to signify he doesn't think war in general ought to be fought. Perhaps Homer's attitude, as an author, was more of poetic realism, describing reality as many of his peers viewed it: war exists and is inevitable; war is gruesome, but the brave will fight; war can bring great glory, but it can also bring great shame; war at times can seem pointless, but the monetary gain and prestige is worth it all; and only a stubborn coward would refuse to fight. I think he was more about putting forth the typical view of war of that time than he was commenting on whether or not it is correct. He was, after all, simply transcribing orally-trasmitted stories. It would be fitting if his own tone didn't bleed through too much.
ReplyDeleteHomers attitude toward war is neither for nor against it. He simple states the horrors associated with war and how the Greeks view those same horrors as honor or shame. The Greeks view killing another in battle to be taking that persons honor but if that person kills you they get your honor, but if you are killed you have the highest honor possible. Which too us doesn't make a lot of sense but to them dying had a special meaning.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it, Homer viewed war not as an inevitable part of life, but as a part of life. The men on the field didn't necessarily know why it was they were fighting, they just knew to fight, it was what they did. There was no cowering, yet the men weren't forced to fight. If they were able to say they weren't going to fight, then they wouldn't have to do so, however this didn't happen much, in fact Achilles, the son of a goddess, part god himself, was the only one in Homer's "The Iliad" that said he wouldn't, and being the superior "man" he didn't have to obey the day-to-day, "this is life" memento that the rest of the soldiers put up with, that being that war was life. They weren't above fighting, if a war was in their cards, then they fought it, as their forefathers had done before them, as it had been done all throughout the span of life. Their whole view on war was that it had to be done, others had done it before them, and they must now achieve this same feat.
ReplyDeleteHomer viewed war in much the same way as any other Greek at the time. It was an honorable exploit and worthy of praise. However, it would seem that Homer would also take a more logical view than many other Greeks. I belive that he thought war should be fought for a good reason. He seemed to understand that the cause of human suffering, as in war, is often flaws of the human character. He was by no means a pacifist, but it would seem he approached war in a highly logical way. This is illustrated by the fact that the entire Trojan war is instigated by an unfaithful wife and a prideful husband. Also, many of the deaths in the war could have been prevented, had Achilles been able to see past the barrier of his pride.
ReplyDeleteWhen reading the Iliad it did not seem that homer was making a statement on war. IF he was trying to express something to the reader, it is that there will be war and there will be all that follows in its wake. Death, destruction, glory, spoils, and apparently the satisfaction of the Gods.
ReplyDeleteHomer spares no detail when depicting the horrors of war. In doing so, he gives off a seemingly anti-war feel. However, this is counterbalanced by his glorifying of both victory and death. When looked at from a reader's viewpoint, this creates a neutral stance. Homer exists only to pass the story along. He does so quite effectively because he simply states the events instead of adding his own bias.
ReplyDeleteHomer sees war as the 'cool guy club.' Every character that he looks positively on is a great warrior. Homer's details when describing the battles are reflections of great deeds, not regret or sorrow over death.
ReplyDelete